Sonja

Sonja

Posted on 09/12/2014


Photo taken on March 29, 2014



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Keywords

Bayern
Church
Kirche
Carving
Bavaria
Schnitzerei
Hoher Peissenberg


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Choir Gallery / Chorempore

Choir Gallery / Chorempore
Inside the pilgrimage church on the Peissenberg / In der Wallfahrtskirche auf dem Peissenberg

Tim Hanko, Milena Dragicevic, novogorodec, Bob Ottey have particularly liked this photo


10 comments - The latest ones
Bob Ottey
Bob Ottey
Beautiful Light Shadows And Colours Sonja Very Fine Detail DOF And Composition Very Definite Fav Kindest Regards Bob.
3 years ago.
Levina de Ruijter
Levina de Ruijter
Nice detail of the church, Sonja. Nice carvings. Interesting to see the vowel /u/ still written with a /v/ both at the beginning and in the middle of a word. In Latin orthography that changed in the late Middle Ages, but I'm not familiar with German orthography. How old is the church, Sonja?
3 years ago.
Sonja has replied to Levina de Ruijter
The whole church itself 17th century, but I think that the choir and organ empores are way newer. I hope I can find a date somehow somewhere....
And I guess the V/U in the antiqua-like font is some kind of classicistic influence already. Writing short all-caps inscriptions near to like the romans would have done them, even if rather keeping the decorations matching late baroque (which is dominating the building) was rather fashionable in bavaria during the times all those neo-styles got mixed and matched. Interesting you cought this detail..... :)
3 years ago.
Levina de Ruijter has replied to Sonja
"I guess the V/U in the antiqua-like font is some kind of classicistic influence already."

Yes, I was thinking that too. Because if it were genuine, i.e. from the time period when the Latin orthography was like that, the church would have to be really old, and it doesn't look it. But I'm not versed in the history of German orthography, so I was in doubt.

As to me catching that detail. I'm a linguist by profession, so it's in my blood so to speak. :)
3 years ago.
Sonja has replied to Levina de Ruijter
I found a text from a booklet that claims 1619 for the year the original gallery was carved and set up all of wood. It went around the sides of the nave and had only one level then. When the new organ came, sides got cleared and to make room for two levels in the back instead, some prayer to the virgin carved below the identical panels was removed for winning height, and only one sidepanel got recycled for building the upper floor right into the window opening. Up there stands until today an organ, with the prospect dating from 1760.

No clue if the text in the lower level is from the original or not. Anyway 1619 would be rather funny for writing v instead of u and such an angular classic and simple font. This is just past the timeline border between late gothic and early baroque, barely a decade before the big pest epedemy reached the area. Really odd.
3 years ago.
Levina de Ruijter has replied to Sonja
Yes, it is odd. Maybe the orthography is not original and was done later and possibly according to what people thought would have been correct originally. And got it wrong. As for the script, yes, one would expect the writing to be in some type of Blackletter.
3 years ago. Edited 3 years ago.
Sonja has replied to Levina de Ruijter
I'd definately expect some variation of Schwabacher-Fractura mixture (Bastarda?) in a wooden text running around a horizontal structure in a bavarian village church around 1600. Good catholics of the Pfaffenwinkel tended a bit to invent variations from Schwabacher, as the tranlated protestant bible font was the most common and widely understood writing by then, but of course the counter reformation was not very happy about it, so they would not be cought dead with a public inscription that was not "improving" it with illegible flourishes, especially ending in plant ornaments or somesuch between words instead of leaving spaces empty. :o)
Typically they also had a funny way to spell things different from modern norms.

In this case text is also devided by cute wee dots rather than empty space and grammer is a bit off (would be "unserER lieben frau[ ]" genetiv in the pronomen, without changed ending in the subject), when written in a modern 19-20th century way, but I cant help to be suspicious, it all looks so sober!
"Unser lieben Frauen vom kalten Bronnen" is a old mercenary song, one of the most wellknown today, that shows the total identical difference to modern german. People "ye-olding" a text for some purpose seem often fo fall back on such eye-catching examples, just see modern flyers for comercial medieval themed events, the sort of not-so-scholarly good fun involving usually a lutenist, ribald songs, some knights and jesters and everyone eating without a fork... they all make the same intentional writing "mistakes" somehow, devided by nations and languages. :)
3 years ago.
Levina de Ruijter
Levina de Ruijter
The Latin interpunct is another oddity indeed. That's a word divider that in Latin went out of fashion around 200CE when it was replaced by scriptio continua (so no divider at all). Around 600CE or so spaces were introduced and at around the year 900 spaces were used in the whole of Europe.

So it probably is a case of classicism, even if it's a bit early. Or maybe neoclasssicism if we take the second date of 1760?

Your observations on the German grammar are also most interesting. I can't contribute anything here as my own linguistic field does not include German or even Indo-European languages, although I do have a good working knowledge of Latin and Greek.

We have a mystery here!
3 years ago.
Sonja has replied to Levina de Ruijter
I admire people that could get through Latin in school with okay marks. I was originally stuffed in a lingual branch on gymnasium, but my latin marks where never very good. Intermediate certificate Latinum Minor I barely passed. And as there are no old romans to practice with, I forgot most of it very soon. LOL
You speak dutch as mother language, so you should also be able to identify someone trying to speak that in a sort of ancient way. British and american friends used this term "Ye-olding" for it. I am sure it exists in dutch as well in some form - or don't you have any kind of middle ages fun festivals with period garbed merchants or occult groups trying to make ritual texts sound ancient or stuff like that there? :)
It's generally enough to have a good comandment of a language in it's modern form and be able to read some famous commented elder texts in their original and modern version side by side to recognize patterns in amateur old time talk, no special linguist schooling. I am just watching the scene, sometimes wistful, sometimes easyly amused. It is not all play only, text magic and font magic. It reinforces content when written and not just used casually for profane reasons (as in the famous""Tarry, wench, I prithee! Wouldst thou Macarena?").
3 years ago.
Levina de Ruijter has replied to Sonja
When I was in university I also took a course in Latin and Greek to refresh my knowledge and learn a bit more. Of course, as it was relevant to my field (Classical Hebrew and Aramaic) I was now very motivated to learn the languages! :) But truth be told, I have always loved learning languages, even in school! :)

As to ye-olding. I can't think of a similar term in Dutch. We do have the term "Oud-Hollands" which refers to pre-modern times, basically the time of our grand parents or maybe a bit earlier. And yes, there is a kind of language that goes with it, also often referred to as "Oud-Hollands". But it is no language at all. It's basically a made up language that people think people spoke way back when, but didn't. In fact, Dutch people now, can not read and understand written texts from even a few hundred years ago. :) So I think it's pretty much what you described. But it's all in good fun and people seem to enjoy it.
3 years ago.