DAMN IT, I AM SOOOO PISSED.... ABORTION....I HOPE THIS STIRS YOUR EMOTIONS....

It's called respect for human life. If you believe that life begins at conception then you have to believe that abortion in that circumstance is murder, plain and simple. I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with this, but the staunch pro-lifers believe this so you can't blame them for wanting to prevent a murder, can you?

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....IN THESE CASES....YES, I CAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DOESN'T ANYONE CARE ABOUT THE VICTIM???

I will go out on a limb with my opinion which few people will admit to sharing. It's not as if everyone who believes in choice does not think abortion is murder. I believe it is, but I also believe that women should have a choice and I don't think I am alone in my beliefs. A women who is pregnant by a man who raped her should have the right to abort, or murder if you prefer, the spawn of the animal who raped her. She should not be required to carry the baby to term and raise it. Cindy, I also strongly agree with you that stem cell research is a top priority and Bush set it back quite a bit.

UCwhatIC Your opinion is pretty much what the whole world believes, No one thinks abortion is 'good'.

Us Kiwi's are continually astounded that a nation as loud and raunchy as the US can be so dominated by right wing religious fervour.

Abortion is the choice for the woman. With some input from the man, the woman has the right to stop her pregnancy or continue it. With all the piece of shit kids running around this country doing terrible things to good people, I wish their parents would of considered it. I know good parents can have bad kids. But bad parents should not have kids at all.

As far as i am concerned, it is the affair of the woman to decide in all cases because it is her body. However it should not be a way of birth control.

I agree largely in the stem cell research that should be authorized because science would advance much faster in medical treatments.

Pro lifers...What about all of the fertility clinics creating embryos that will never be allowed to "continue their life". Fearless leader Bush believes it is murder to use these embryos for stem cell research, but please tell me why leaving them frozen in perpetuity is better than using them for LIFE SAVING research?????

Women should always have the right to choose... especially in the case of incest or rape. Abortion remains a ludicrously divisive issue in the US, the "moral" position of the church is now fully and horribly incarnated in the country of El Salvador, where abortion is now illegal under all circumstances...(the Palin doctrine). There are no exceptions for rape or incest. The moment a woman presents at a hospital, with a perforated uterus, indicating that she has had a "back-alley abortion", she is shackled to her hospital bed and her body is treated as a crime scene. Forensic doctors soon arrive to examine her uterus and cervix for evidence against her. There are now women serving prison sentences thirty years long for terminating their pregnancies!!!!! Imagine Sarah Palin's world where this becomes reality in the United States....NO THANKS!!!!!!!

I've never liked the idea of abortion, but have always understood the need for proper, safe, and legal abortion. I agree that it shouldn't be used as an easy form of birth control, and i've known a few woman who regretted they used it that way.
Any victim of rape must have the option to abort. There should never be any doubt about that. A 14 year old Irish rape victim had to come across to England a few years ago to abort the resulting pregnancy. Surely forcing her to have the child as the Irish law said, would have been a form of abuse.

REPLY TO Purple T....i only wish that i could hold that 14 year-old girl in my arms....give her a hug....and explain to her how "FU**ED UP" a well-meaning segment of human society CAN be....

Cindy....

You do recognize that they are "well meaning" but you are correct. They can victimize the victim a second time. In that case, I do believe the woman should have the option, with the proper counseling.

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....i am so glad u posted this....because i had thought, from your PREVIOUS posts, that we would not agree on ANYTHING...i'm glad we do ;-)

same here dave, same here :) When there's some common ground, there's something to build upon! But I still hope obama wins :)))

Some people aren't suitable to even have a dog let alone raise a child. To force them to keep something that they don't want to begin with is wrong. They would not give the child the loving and care that is diserved. Most likely abuse would be the outcome. This child would not live a good life. So to end it before it comes to this may be the right way to handle things.

My first problem with this thread is that everyone is lumping rape and incest together as two bad things. These are two seperate entities and incest, unless it's forced, shouldn't be looked at as something so terrible that it's as disgusting as rape and the child MUST be aborted. That's bullshit. I've spoken to many a couple, cousins, brother/sister,etc and they have had a child, the child is normal, but society condemns them. That's a whole seperate arguement.

As to abortion and murder i PERSONALLY BELIEVE that a child in the womb is still a part of its mother, much like a spleen or any other organ. Therefore it has no soul until birth. Removing a spleen isnt considered murder, why should a fetus? I believe that soul enters a body the day its born and leaves that body the day it dies, not 9 month after it dies!

If by some chance, the Republicans win this election and McSame successfully turns around Roe V Wade, abortion will once again become illegal in the U.S. That doesnt mean abortion will STOP, it will go back to the underground, unsafe and unsanitary conditions, done by mid-wives and quack doctors out to make a buck. The teens today arent going to stop screwing because some old white haired dude passed a dumb law. Abortion will become one more thing they do behind their parents back, along with drinking and drug use.

And one final thought on abortion, it IS necessary as long as STUPID PEOPLE BREED!

Overturning Roe v Wade would only put the matter back to the individual states. It would not Ban abortion as many people suggest.

I agree about Roe v. Wade. It doesn't end abortion, simply returns the power to where it belongs. And I agree it's best if states regulate it. Then any woman could travel to a state that allows abortion or can actually live in that state if they so choose. Makes sense to me.

! SEXee CINDY replies:

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....IN THESE CASES....YES, I CAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DOESN'T ANYONE CARE ABOUT THE VICTIM???

Which victim?

Ponder that..........

REPLY TO Rampart Dog.....which victim???....THE ONE ALREADY BORN....THE ONLY ONE I CONSIDER TO BE A "PERSON"....

Cindy -

This is exactly why pro-choice folks will never understand, and even dare I say, respect a pro-life position.

As you say, the one already born....the only one YOU consider to be a person. Do you hear what your saying..........?

I do not state this from a religious zealot perspective.....far, far from it. LOL. I simply believe that all human life has value, born or unborn,

Gov Palin, if elected VP, or would have to assume the Presidency would not have the power to overturn Roe v Wade, nor does any president.

While you may disagree with her position, wouldn't you have to agree that it is better to be forthright than play politics with a subject so emotionally and morally charged.

That said, I would probably not oppose a woman's ability (notice I did not say right) to an abortion (not that I could anyway) that had been raped or was the victim of coerced incest. Clearly abominable offenses.

But it does still beg the question Who can say what this life may bring to the world? And, IMHO we have created another victim, regardless if one does not consider them to be a person. Put it this way, would you not be outraged if a mother of an unborn child was murdered and in that horrific act the child died as well? How can in your instance the unborn not be a person, and in mine the state in prosecuting the crime consider the child to be a person?

What would be the greater victimization, aborting a child conceived in this manner because of the initial rage of how the child was conceived; or having to live the rest of ones life realizing at a later point in time, that child did nothing to me, and I ended its right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

REPLY TO Rampart Dog....an abortion does NOT end a child's life, in my opinion....it ends the life of a fetus....a fetus BECOMES a child at birth....

OK, but what of my analogy "Put it this way, would you not be outraged if a mother of an unborn child was murdered and in that horrific act the child died as well? How can in your instance the unborn not be a person, and in mine the state in prosecuting the crime consider the child to be a person?"

So if a child that is aborted is considered a fetus, what is a child who dies because its mother was murdered before the child lived outside of its mothers womb? Is that still a fetus and that would not outrage you?

REPLY TO Rampart Dog....MURDER OUTRAGES ME....MURDER SHOULD OUTRAGE EVERYONE....I AM OUTRAGED BY MURDER, WHETHER THE VICTIM IS PREGNANT OR NOT....FEMALE OR MALE....WHITE, BLACK, OR A MEMBER OF ANY MINORITY....and on and on....but it doesn't change my opinion that a fetus becomes a child AT BIRTH....

So, Cindy... I guess you are in favor of late-term abortion, when a child who would survive outside the womb on his or her own is killed (or aborted, if you favor that term)?

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....I NEVER SAID THAT "I WAS IN FAVOR" OF ANY ABORTION....late-term abortions should ONLY be performed if the health of the mother is in danger....other than that, i feel an abortion should NOT be performed after the 5th month, or so....HOWEVER....even in the final tri-mester of pregnancy, i DO NOT CONSIDER THE FETUS TO BE A CHILD....

Ok - we're making some progress, but........

What is magical about the fifth month that gives the unborn the right to be born.

Why not the fourth, third, second, first,. Or to take it to the other end of the time line of the babies life pre-birth when the baby is actually being born, a 'doctor' sticking a vacuum tube in the babies cranium sucking out there brain and euphemistically calling it a "partial birth abortion". Interesting to note where the presidential and vice presidential candidates stand on that.

I do not expect to change yours or anyone's mind in this thread who is pro-choice; only to have you examine why you are so fervently pro-choice and the logic you use to defend your position, and emotions. I once was pro-choice myself but reexamined my position after talking to women, of various ages, about their second thoughts, and in some cases profound regret at taking this irreversible action, with out considering all alternatives.

Incidentally, back to the original question Cindy posed - of all the abortions in this country since Roe v Wade was overturned (and the USA is now the in the dubious position of leading the world in this matter) only three percent were done so for reasons of rape, incest or a danger to the mothers life - meaning 97 percent were done for convenience.

And a final note - a women's right to choose........50 % of fetuses aborted can be unquestionably determined as female.

Would you not agree that the sign of true compassion is defending those in our society that are the least defenseless? It is a slippery slope when any one of us arbitrarily use dates with out reason, definitions with out values when it comes to this issue.

REPLY TO Rampart Dog....i do not know how accurate ANY of your statistics are....they may be accurate, but they do not change my opinion, in the least....As for my choice of the 5th month....that is my opinion, as well....we would only need to be specific, as to the month, if legislation was being written, concerning this issue....THAT GOODNESS, THAT IS NOT THE CASE....AND I PRAY THAT IT WILL NEVER BE....

Biological point...for what it is worth... It is estimated that 50 percent of all human conceptions end in spontaneous abortion, usually without a woman even realizing that she was pregnant. In fact, 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. If we blame the woman for exercising her right to choose...and since many feel the need to place blame for pregnancies that are terminated... who then should we blame for these spontaneous abortions and miscarriages?????

*sigh*

Kind of a threadjack here, but do you realize that per capita, there are more abortions performed on black women than another other race? And if those abortions had not been performed, African Americans would be more numerous than hispanics and therefore have more power to vote. So the Democrats who support abortion are actually holding down the black race in favor of other races.

And Body of Nature, you can't "blame" anyone for spontaneous abortions. That's God's will. But you can blame someone who knowingly commits murder for "convenience." They follow up one bad choice (having unprotected sex) with another. But the liberals give them a pass on this because women should control their own bodies. How about first controlling their own lust?

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....while your statistics MAY be correct....and i don't know that they are....YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE TOTALLY FU**ED-UP....the Dems. are NOT holding ANYONE DOWN....if i didn't know what a nice guy u really are, i would consider your conclusion to be "SOOOOOOO RACIST"....

Dave you completely missed the point!!!!

Not racist at all. In fact, it's the Dems who are racist. They are the ones who consistently tell African Americans that they are not good enough to compete on their own. They insist that the ONLY way blacks get ahead is by providing them with "affirmative action" programs. The Dems COUNT on keeping blacks down because if they ever get ahead and understand how life and business REALLY work, they'd understand that conservatives have it right: hard work and education are the only thing that you need to succeed. Dems, on the other hand, want the government to support blacks with handouts and government programs so they depend upon the government for EVERYTHING. So along with preventing the birth of millions of black babies, the Democrats want the blacks to remain poor and dependent upon the government (which will consist of Democrats because the blacks will continue to vote for them as long as they give them shit for free). So it's the Democrats who are racist. They only see politics via the color of your skin, not the content of your character. Surely you can understand that.

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....A REPUBLICAN calling DEMOCRATS "RACIST"???....that's like PALIN calling OBAMA "UNINFORMED"....

How can you deny that it's true? You are a thinker. Certainly you can see how the Dems have held down blacks? For more than 50 years blacks have been voting Democratic. And what have they gotten from it? Only government handouts that's all. I evaluate ALL people on their character regardless of their skin color. Democrats START with skin color and go from there. You're telling me that's not racist? OF COURSE IT IS!

REPLY TO Dave Griffith....the REPUBLICANS have never met a minority they LIKED....the ONLY use REPUBLICANS have for minorities (including ILLEGAL ALIENS), is as a source of cheap labor in their factories and businesses....

You are wrong Cindy. Republicans judge everyone by their character, not by the color of their skin. And Illegal aliens are just that---illegal. If they want to be US citizens, they should do it legally or be deported. They have no rights because they are not citizens. But anyone who becomes a citizen has every right and every responsibility that we all have... including the right to be born.

Wow, this is great entertainment.

REPLY TO UCwhatIC....SOOOOOO....what's YOUR view on this important issue....HUH???....

Abortion isn’t something the liberals invented in our lifetime. Mothers have been killing their children -- unborn and born – since before history could record it. There are plenty of tales regarding the killing of children over the centuries, so to think things are getting out of hand today in America is a bit naive.

I personally don't think an abortion is something women should take lightly, or have performed on them because they don’t know all alternatives. There are physical, mental, and emotional considerations which could leave scars on the woman for the rest of her life. Those scars can be equally deep from an abortion or giving birth to an unwanted child. We have laws in this country to protect a woman’s right to choose what she feels best for her, and always remember that a pro-abortionist has the potential to choose life, too!

IMHO a pregnant and dejected woman considering abortion should have sufficient information to choose what actions to take for the good of that would-be human growing inside her and for herself. What kind of future would this child have if it were carried to birth? Would it be cared for? Healthy? Loved? Could the mother care for the child, or would someone else be better suited? What contingency plans are available? And what good is that jackass who knocked her up?

Abortion is not a pretty thing to have happen, but to me it’s not the heart of what’s going on in this discussion. Here’s what I see: Too many people think they speak for the Almighty. They claim to be speaking what is truth and right. To me, that’s just another cheap shot at dishonoring the god within others, within all of us. When some people insist everyone follow their pompous wisdom, well excuse me – who died and left them in charge????

Reality Check: No one actually knows when a Soul comes into a body -- it’s what we BELIEVE happens. What gives some people the right to speak for a soul that isn’t or was or will be? We are not privy to Divine Plan and until such time as we are, it might be a better idea to mind our own lives. Let the woman considering an abortion make her own decisions and take responsibility for her actions. If she feels in her heart of hearts that her decision is the right thing to do, who are we to push our agenda on her?

REPLY TO StarBear....many of the points u make are valid....i do NOT speak for the Almighty....i ONLY speak for CINDY MILLER....thanx 4 your comments, StarBear....

Reply to Cindy: Sorry if you thought I meant you, that wasn't my intention. I was speaking about the religious right "ministers" and their groupies I've had the ?pleasure? of meeting in this life.

And Cindy Miller is fortunate to have such a lovely and intelligent person speaking for her! :o)

Thank you so much! i could not agree more.

New Zealands sad abortion rates continue to rise.
We now have 2/3rds the US rate.
We have a very similar culture.
We now have a well presented, little bit at a time, 'opt out' sex education program from the age of 9.
No school that gets state funding can not provide it.
Hopefully it will pay dividends in our younguns health.


AND AND
Your deregulated economy is collapsing (as they do)
Could there be any other election issue of such magnitude.
Does it matter whether the candidates are assholes.

Abortion is kind of homicide. But until the baby is born, none but the mother should have the power to decide about it.

Even taking antibiotics causes massive murder of bacteria. I am sure pro bacteria life groups exist somewhere in our guts. We just do not listen to them. Because our body is ours. So it is the case with a unborn baby. It is part of the mother's body and only her can decide, not politicians or anyone else. Only the mother.

"So it is the case with a unborn baby." When did the fetus become a baby..........GOTCHA!

: )

To me, an unborn baby, fetus, or whatever you want to call it, is part of the mother's body, as it could not live without. Only the mother can decide. Not anyone else. You just did not understand what I said. Or you do not want to.

; ^ )

Just simple logic darlin'

XXOO

@ e-person

No, I understand what you said completely....except the mass murder part about bacteria. I must confess that this was a new justification for abortion for me.