Roberto Ballerini - traveling Published on January 21, 2008
by Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro

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About filtering

Monday January 21, 2008 at 08:04AM

Some thoughts about responsibility, ethics, freedom of expression and children.

After the Yahoo/Flickr debacle, lot of old Flickerites started a new quest for the Promise Land.

I'm pretty sure that this fact is one of the reasons of the growth of Ipernity and I'm almost sure Team Ipernity knows about it: they were in the right place at the right time.

So I'm likewise sure they had long, long discussions before facing this hot topic.

We have seen their friendly face until now, but they are also businessmen and they have to protect their business and money. So I try to confront this difficult theme without judging the timing of their decision, even if I am a little bit disappointed by the fact that there aren't new laws to abide to.

First of all: I'm grateful to have the possibility to discuss about the implementation, but if I was a paying member I'd be a little upset by this change of rules after I gave out my money; so I can understand that paying members can have a more radical position.

I'm aware that each community have to have its laws (and its punishments for the transgressors: laws are ineffectives without the certainty of the punishement, as we know very well in Italy...). As an international community we are subject to international laws and as a French enterprise Ipernity is subject to French and EU laws. So for me is adamant that every trasgression to those laws can be punished and that everyone of us will decide how much risk we want to have to fight against stupid laws (yes: there are stupid laws, IMHO).

That said, I want to venture on the usefulness of a filtering system.

A filtering system, IMHO, is effective if it is useful, if it can't be misused and if it can be applied in a timely manner.

I try to test the Team proposal against those prerequisites.

Is it useful? It can be of any use if it can help us in choosing our way of taking part to the community life. To this effect, everyone have to accept it and respect it and from the first discussions I have read it seems to me it isn't the case.

Can it be misused? I don't know. I haven't understood who will enforce it. If I can judge the works of my Ipernity peers, it can be misused, as we experienced on Flickr. Shots and photographer were censored without any reason and they had the possibility to defend only after being censored. I remember Rebekka and our Ipernity friends Christine Lebrasseur and Don Gato, to make some examples.

If the judgement is made by the Team, I'm sorry to say that I suspect we will come to the third condition, the possibility to apply it in a timely manner: can the Team review in a timely manner all the streams? nope! can the Team review in a timely manner all the flagged streams or shots? perhaps, but this raises another question: how effective can be a self disciplined rating?

I can understand the position of all the parents worried for what can be seen by their children, but I feel that self imposed filtering can't aid: the great majority of who uploads questionable content will not bother to correctly rate it, in my experience.

How can I trust a self imposed filtering? How can I worry about my Ipernity network contents, when I daily impact on questionable content in every Google search?

Is it a real problem if my child sees a thumbnail of a "bad" shot or the problem is that Iìm embarrassed to explain to my child that life can also be dangerous and that not all the people have the same ideas and the same ethics of her parents?

In my opinion we, as parents, already have all the features we need to protect our children: have we all the "features" to protect ourselves? I mean: is it a problem of ipernity features or it is a problem of not having been taught how to be real parents?

Mt personal reply is that no filtering system can give us aid in protecting our children: only our ability to talk to them and to educate them can help.

So, if not to protect children, what can be another reason to have a filtering system, a self disciplined filtering system (where self can be me or my community)? I don't know. It can be, perhaps, a way to choose content, but it can't be more effective than tagging or search, in my opinion.

So the only reason I see for this filtering system is for the Team to abide with laws.

Summarizing:

  • I don't trust self disciplined rating
  • I don't trust automatic decisions about content
  • I don't think human revision of content can be a viable solution in the long run

Sorry Team! This time I feel it's you who have to decide and to take the responsibility of your decisions: abide to the laws and risk to lose (part of) the community (and of the business) or trust the community and risk to be fined by the law (and to lose part of your business).

30 Comments / add your comment?

Bigoode [Frozen account] says:
mmmm.......
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
MDR: qu'est-ce que c'est que "mmmm..."?

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink / translate )
Bigoode [Frozen account] replies:
bah comme toi !
"j'sais pas quoi dire"
:D
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink / translate )
jake makes slideshowspro says:
well thought out.!

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Zaphod says:
Thank you. The best description of the problem i read so far!
The world today tries to solve to much social problems with technical instruments. The result are dumb laws and senseless restrictions, but the initial problem was never solved.
Filtering content is such a dumb idea not covering the problem.
Discussing this before implementing something with the members and customers shows the respect of the ipernity team for us (and/or the ability to learn from other peoples faults ;-)), but did not lead to a satisfieing solution covering the initial problem. The best what will happen is keeping lawyers and bureaucracy away.
For me this is a point of decission: due to massive financial problems last year i am still not pro, I want to change this as soon I get a minimal stability. Now there is a second point to mention: the intelligence of the handling of this problem.
I hope and wish all the best, but my experience with society leads me to be sceptic ...
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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
David Spro says:
"Mt personal reply is that no filtering system can give us aid in protecting our children: only our ability to talk to them and to educate them can help."

I agree with you! Maybe it's possible to solve the problem at Ipernity but tomorrow it'll be another and another... Ipernity.

"The world today tries to solve to much social problems with technical instruments. The result are dumb laws and senseless restrictions, but the initial problem was never solved."

True! Sad but true.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Charppro says:
Very well explained. I hope you have make a link in the group for this post, because it is there that the discussion is going also.
So far, I do not agree with the team, but not completely with you either.

If censorship/filtering is limited to red and non-artistic content, (and does not take into account the langage and potentially harmful sections!) the team, with the "help" of members (I will never give such a help, but I know it will come), can control the respect of the guidelines.

For me it has nothing to do with children - a bad excuse- but with difference of sensibilities, cultures and countries.

We have to choose between restraining a little our freedom of expression or restraint the diversity of people here. And diversity is a chance, as is freedom of expression. That is why I think a limited filtering, wich is itself a limited censorship could be a good balance.

Also, if the team, for business reason, want to broad his audience, I think it could be our interest to propose a moderate path, and not saying, "your project or our"

But I prefer, as it is now, your proposal than the one of the team.

About children, as I say in the group, it is more responsible for the future of our children to protect their freedom than to be sure they do'nt see a tit accidentally.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
I agree with you that our freedom ends where the freedom of the others starts, but the limit is razor-like. It is our choice to take part to a community like this and it is our choice how to take part to it. I love tolerance and difference, but I can't accept it as an excuse for censorship or for a restriction of the few common principles that human mankind was able to share after thousands of years of fight. By chance all these principles are covered by international laws. I don't think it's possible to enlarge this shared ethics through a group discussion, sorry. I'm not ready to diminish my freedom of expression (and that fo my children) in an attempt to reach an unanimous vision of ethics and moral, unattainable in my opinion.
Lots of us chose Ipernity after reading its guidelines because it is a European company and we expect it to be guided by an European spirit about ethics and behaviour. With this I don't want to be racist or to be unrespectful of the other ideas, but I don't want again that an American company apply European laws using an American moral and ethics (and I only touched problems with Western cultures: there are also Eastern cultures --> I don't think it's possible to find a synthesis of all of them without reached a very grayed-out world).
Finally: I really think difference is an important value of the world --> why trying to omologate all to a common denominator? this is the way to completely lose the differences!

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Charppro replies:
It's razorlike, you're right.
And I am sure your are not against tolerance and difference, on the contrary.
It is just the question of how those general principles will be applied. Because human mankind share those principles as long as it stay on a general level. When it comes to reality, we see that those "general principles" could have different concrete meanings.
And I prefer a community wich discuss freely what it will do, than international or national laws, wich about freedom say the less, and let the strongest wins.
I also agree we will never have a unanimous synthesis, and I don't want it neither. It is just that I think it could be good to have a place here where some of those differences could meet.
"European spirit" doesn't exist. We are on a strong trend to less tolerance and freedom here also. To fight against it, we have may be to think that freedom is not THE most important value, but one of them. Dignity of man is also important, and some "free expression" are an attack to it. I don't want complete censorship about such attacks, just a little. Just discretion.
What I mean by attack on dignity? For example, to consider sexuality and bodies as consumables. As art, no limit. (La porte Bleue on my blog have made some interesting distinction about that). The difference is also razorlike between art and consumption. But every position on this topic is razorlike.
I repeat: if it is your position that is adopted, I will have no problem with it. It is just I think we can do a little better.I will not say the same if the project of the team, as it is, is adopted. That is really dangerous. And one of the most dangerous aspect is that it makes no difference between art and consumption.
And also, don't forget: it is also dangerous to let only two options: the project as it is or the actual situation. Because laws let the strongest wins...
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
manganite says:
Really well written. But the problem remains. Please look at this:





sor




For me this porn and shouldn't be freely available on a page like this. And in no media in no country something like that would be free for children and not even for adults if they couldn't proof to be adults. And I think no one has a problem with that.

To have this regulations has nothing to do with censorship, it's a question of protection. And I think the same should be valid for a platform like this. The problem is the way to achieve this. It's not easy, much more difficult as compared to print media or TV, but the solution couldn't be to do nothing, cause the system wouldn't be perfect.

I think one should make such people as difficult as possible to spread this crap around. And if this includes a classification system like the one suggested by the team, than this is okay for me.

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
manganite replies:
P.S.: Okay, the team has already removed this video... But I'm pretty sure there is more like this one...

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
I'm sure too, but I have no intention to search for it ;-)
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Bigoode [Frozen account] replies:
where ???
i've missed this one.....
.....

OK !!! KIDDING !!!!!
ah ah ah

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
I think it's impossible to find a totally satisfying solution; if I have to choose between the risk of confronting with inappropriate content or to limit freedom of expression, I prefer to maintain the actual level of freedom of expression.
I don't think necessary nor useful to add a filtering system to avoid illegal content: all of us have agreed to terms of service before obtaining membership and there is a link to pinpoint inappropriate content in each content page and a link to contact the Team.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
manganite replies:
I think, as long as everyone is able to see what it would be able to see in real world, there is no restriction of freedom trough a filtering system. I think nobody is complaining about restriction of freedom cause it's not possible to see an explicit video of a women giving a blow job in public TV, so why should it be here?

Freedom doesn't mean no rules. Everywhere in real world you have rules and restrictions and nobody has problems with it. Why should it be here a problem?

And also there always people in real world who are trying to break the rules, should we therefor have no rules?

I agree, no filtering system will be perfect, but I don't see the the level of imperfection in this special case is as high that I can't live with it.




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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Annjin says:
Thank you Roberto, for so well expressing your point of view.

I don't think necessary nor useful to add a filtering system to avoid illegal content: all of us have agreed to terms of service before obtaining membership and there is a link to pinpoint inappropriate content in each content page and a link to contact the Team.

For me this is a important point. If the TOS itself is enough to follow law, why do we need the filtering?
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
M a d . P h o t o . W o r l d says:
I think there's a lot more a risk than just making sure our children don't see porn. My child is 10, so i can understand the porn debate and im not saying it isn't valid or anything.

I came here from flickr. Read the terms. Sign up and started to pay. Under a year later ipernity begins to talk about having content filtering, illegal content, censorship, rating system and so on.
Ipernity does it the smart way ... letting us users have a say or at least give them our opinion. Smarter move than the one flickr choosen.

What im really concern with is the fact that more and more censorship slips in. All over. Yes i know, its not ipernity's fault they just follow the law, on the illegal stuff anyway. I don't have a problem with a filtering system, i just turn it off. I have a problem with censorship. We're right back at where we were with flickr. Its not better. Its not worse. Same as flickr.

God post Roberto, but i think actually one of your answers says it all:
"I think it's impossible to find a totally satisfying solution; if I have to choose between the risk of confronting with inappropriate content or to limit freedom of expression, I prefer to maintain the actual level of freedom of expression."

For me its quite simple: Any step that will weaken the freedom of speech and/or freedom of expression should always be avoided. For me there are no "Grey" here. Only "Black" and "White".
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
manganite replies:
If this is really about freedom of expression, one should protest against everything, against restrictions on television, radio, cinema, newspapers, books, comics, everything where content is restricted, rated or classified somehow to protect children or just make some sort of content not easily available.

A rating system is maybe uncomfortable or complicated, but to restrict the availability of some content is no censorship or a restriction of freedom of expression.


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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Team ipernitypro says:
We haven't taken any decision and are listening to everyone's point of view. We'll answer in a couple of days with a new proposal which will be discussed again. Thanks to all for participating!
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
Thanks Team. I know it's a difficult decision and I'm happy not to be in your shoes ;)

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Christophe Ruellepro replies:
Hello Roberto. First thanks for taking some of your time to enhance the debate.
Why are we thinking about this content filtering system?
Laws? no. I don't think any website has ever been suied for that. Maybe warned about illegal contents...
Business? maybe, but not directly. I think we would *all* be afraid if a journalist was explaining how easy it is for a kid to watch porn (videos?) even accidentally! Maybe that's paranoia. Ipernity is still quite confidential. But this will happen sooner or later if we don't care about this problem.
Maybe should we build a wall around us, check everyone is 18+ and forget about this complicate filtering system. Just kidding ;)
Thanks everyone for giving us your opinions, it's really helping us to find the best solution.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Roberto Ballerini - travelingpro replies:
Happy if I've been of any help. You know how much I love Ipernity (and now you know how much I love freedom of expression...).
As I said: I don't think it possible to have a useful and widely accepted way of categorizing content, but I'm here to hear from you your ideas.
I'm with you on the necessity of monitoring illegal content to protect the website, but I think that filtering can't help to achieve this. If I was in you, I'd feel a real danger more in the musical content than in porn.

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
mad.melon replies:
if not law and not money than WHAT FOR>? kids can find porn easier than informations about moomins...

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Annjin replies:
yup ... what for .. ? that i wonder too (even I've think i solved that riddle... ha! save us all ;)))
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Juan E.pro says:
Esto no es america, creo que a los niños los educamos los padres y no se puede pretender que un sistema de censura resuelva el problema, y para todo lo ilegal estan las autoridades.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink / translate )
cjg of Eroticalee says:
hello team ipernity. i'm new here but i'll throw in my 2 cents worth.first i don't know the laws of France regarding site content but i have no objection to you abiding by them if that's the problem.legal hassles can cost a lot of money and if it's your government after you that can break your financial back so to speak.i'm not sure what you mean by filtering but how about this,a warning page that comes up with an"adult content" logo before one views the docs.i've seen somethig like this used on google.i for one have no objection to this approach to a difficult problem in fact i'll be the first to say try it out on our site if you need to test it.the "protect the chidren
' arguement never works with me.that is for the parents to take care of and you often hear it from folks who can't be bothered to pay attention to what their kids are up to. over here in Canada any computer savy kid knows how to get around filters or blocks.most of them are a hell of a lot smarter than we give them credit for.i know mine have seen a lot of pretty raw stuff and seem to be more bored with it more than anything else.and by the way if you have't noticed there seem to be any number of young girls getting naked and showing everything on countless different "porn" sites i don't think young people are coming here to ipernity for their "thrills".first and foremost follow the laws of your country and for those who can't handle that "tough nuts".that includes myself cause i can always go elsewhere even though i like it here so far.
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
mad.melon says:
as i said before: all censorship is bad. and i have my own experiences because i was born in totalitarian country and I KNOW censorship and all implications.
and as i said before: parents are responsible for their children, law can't change a thing. if kids are left all alone they will find everything. kids are smart. and if something is forbidden they will look for it simply because they are curious.
and yep! i don't want ipernity to become second *fuckr* - if so, i will quit and find another place. and i don't have any pics that could be flagged as "unsafe"! it's just i don't agree with censorship in general.
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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Dirkpro says:
Whatever ipernity would do: As long, as filtering is AN OPTION, that i can DISABLE for myself, it’s okay!

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Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Christophe Ruellepro replies:
LOL Dirk ;) you're right!
Posted 22 months ago. ( permalink )
Team ipernitypro says:
We've just posted a new proposal here: www.ipernity.com/group/36490/discuss/13963
Posted 21 months ago. ( permalink )

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