Strange Space

Interesting

Well, they got you now, you know ;-D

Seriously, I can't of course argue against your personal positive experience. I think its great you feel happy & good about your self.

Personally I don't believe in any higher powers. I believe in humanity and humans capability to enrich their own lives. Higher powers are in my humble opinion just another word for humans to be able to be imaginative and find reason and happiness for their lives. That is, that we are capable to do that. I just think we should see that strength is in ourselves. Not accredit other things for our own merits :-)

Hey, thanks for commenting...

I agree with you, actually. I believe in the power of the human mind. But there is something more subtle I've been trying to articulate for awhile now, but I'm having trouble doing so.

I think our minds and bodies are hard-wired to believe in "something"... and depending on who we've become throughout the course of our lives, we either embrace that tendency or we reject it. The more intellectual among us tend to reject it.

However, I'm realizing now that rejecting it has left an emotional void in me. So now I'm trying to fill that void in a way that makes sense to me. It doesn't mean I will indulge delusions or allow my intellect to believe things I cannot see. But I will allow my heart to believe such things, if it needs to do so.

Does that make sense?

Our thoughts and believes=our beings, we're free to choose and that's how we'll experience our existence.
Meditations are great , but not everyone can really stop thinking, it arises anxiety for some, like they will loose their ground, or, if you can't touch it - it does not exist...it's only your imagination...
Well, everything we experience is designed by our imagination, memories from the long forgotten past, and to change our habits - is a threat...

I meditate 15 years - daily, I believe it can and should be a way of life... and I enjoyed reading your impressions.
Have a peaceful day +__+

@kagogo, yes it does make sense, actually I thought your text was very well written and understandable. Its not easy to explain these things but you did very good.

I understand both you and @adam. Personally I'm might be on the more intellectual / anxiety level ;-). I can understand that one can find some calmness that are difficult to explain in the more so-called rational world terms. Of course that doesn't make those feelings or thoughts less valid. And as said, if that's what's makes ones life more complete one should stick to that, and it doesn't need to be an abounding of intellectual thinking at all.

I tried meditation but to be honest I couldn't concentrate, just kept thinking at other things and got bored ;-) Perhaps I don't have much to meditate over... No, I'm thinking it might have something to do on how one view ones life. I have habit of getting things over and done with quickly, and I prefer not use too much time on what has been.

As @adam says, we're free to choose.

There are two schools of meditation, the eastern and western. The western school is partly inspired by Qabalah, whereas the eastern tends towards the void, the "no-place" you spoke of.

In the western school, you do not seek to clear your mind; rather, you concentrate on a subject and attempt to follow all the implications that arise to their ultimate consequences. You are following an eastern-inspired path.

I read Annjin's views and it seems to me she could not focus. Even in eastern-style meditation there are many varieties of exercise. You may focus on a single spot upon a wall, and make that the center of your meditation. Or you may concentrate on sound, a mantra.

Perhaps, Annjin, you tried to put the cart before the horse, as they say, and tried to get to the good stuff before you mastered the basics.

I am not a regular meditator, but I engage in the practice from time to time. I have experimented with posture, sound and image, and also with breath. Breath-based meditations are the most powerful for me.

Once I went into an actual trance state where I believed I could see the room with my eyes closed. I felt a weight on my lap, and when I looked down a great book lay open before my eyes, manuscript and illustrated, something out of the twelfth century. I was sitting on the damp grass of a spring meadow and in my den at the same time. I could feel the breeze stroking my cheek and ruffling my hair. I looked to the right and two identical cats were playing not a foot from my knee. As one moved the other mirrored him.
I clearly perceived someone moving across the room, opening a door then closing it behind them.

I was neither asleep nor awake. I was neither dreaming nor day-dreaming. Neither conscious nor unconscious.

That was a blast, I can tell you.

Jorge, thanks for making the distinction between eastern and western approaches to meditation. It's something I knew but seem to keep forgetting. Often I tell people to embrace this "no mind" state, forgetting that perhaps their personalities are better-suited toward reciting mantras, or like you said, focusing on a point on the wall.

And wow! Your trance experience is fascinating. As a child, I would spontaneously have experiences like that, but I seem to have lost that "ability" as an adult.

Now, I have glimmers of experiences like that, but nothing that concrete. Every now and then I glimpse 3-dimensional "spaces" where no natural laws seem to apply, but the moment I realize I'm "there", it disappears.

Oh, and I forgot to say that I believe in higher powers.

I am one of them. :p

No, seriously. The place we live in is a gigantic information macrostructure. We are part of that information. We are limited beings, at least to outward appearance. Who's to say the universe is not conscious?

While I describe myself as a "functional atheist", I reject blind belief but am open to infinite possibility.

My experience of the transcendent has been far from happy and fuzzy, however. I have felt things in my gut that would core my soul like an apple if I were a religious fundamentalist, regardless of persuasion.

Through meditation I have gained insights that make me feel very close to Taoism.

It is hard to speak of these things with any degree of precision. As Lao Zi once said, "The Tao that can be said is not the real Tao."

Damn, am I the minority again...!

I get what you say but I still is not convinced that this is some outside higher powers.. Perhaps we are talking beside each other.

I wonder if what you all are experiencing is caused by humans abilities to gain some access to levels (so sorry in advance for my lack of proper English on this topic) that we all have as humans, but seldom are in touch with because we have too much else to keep control over? Or I am I missing something here?

Thanks guys for indulging this discussion! All of your points are taken. I have more to say about them, but I will have to wait until tomorrow. I am on the run.

Goodnight!

the experience which m-evolve describes, all zen-masters warn about: it's pure illusion, not enlightment
enlightment is no-mind: the undescriptable experience of a complete void
nothingness
...
each lizard warming itself in the sun (or each worm in the mud:)) is far more religious (i.e, closer to god:)) than all buddhas and messiahs and prophets of all ages, I think: creatures feeling creation in their whole body mindless: being one with god.
and god, of course, does not exist. how could he/she/it? existing would mean to perceive a separate entity (as god)... that's (in christian terms: an idol, the devil:))
meditating is a fine thing... falling in trance, too... like dreaming, sometimes

ps & nb: the closest experience of unity with creation and creator is orgasm, imho

If I go for a walk in the forest or hiking at the mountains I feel a more completeness and at peace with myself than I ever managed to do with meditating. I'm not saying the one is better than the other, I just personally feel more at peace sitting at a mountain top in silence with nature around me... For me that's perhaps a kind of meditating. I think better in fresh air and while I'm moving.

And of course, agree with you whole-heartedly on your last point @fabio :-D

Orgasm is the shallow ecstasy...but for one who did not experience a higher ecstasy- it's the highest...and I'm not patronizing...long time ago I believed so...when I first experienced a higher state I new there's much more to it !

To walk on a mountain top, is a great feeling of calmness, meditating with over -tons, music, dancing, is much more than relaxation...it's about seeing and hearing your inner-self, yes, it can be scary, but it can be - a feeling that is impossible to express....

I can only add that after a good meditation, you magnetize people who don't really know why they feel the need to be near you....but they do come to breath the energy that surrounds your presence.

Every way one chooses to calm the mind is great, when one is ready and willing to experience more, just find a way to stop the thoughts and what has to arise - will...
+__+

well, tantrics (and some taoist wise men) hold that orgasm is the highest possible (unlocking kundalini in your spine, too:)) ecstasy, but they have something like an inner, spiritual orgasm in mind, imho... walking alone for hours in the mountains or along a brook sometimes lead to a calm, lasting ecstasy (instead of a better word) for me... but certainly in my case not enlightment or anything similar...

Thanks Fabio... I've been reading a bit about kundalini, and about Tantric sex as well. The claim of orgasm being the "highest" form of ecstasy is interesting, although I'm sure the philosophers meant it differently than how most people experience orgasm.

Lately I'm discovering there is much tension in my tailbone -- probably from sitting on my bum all day -- and it is very hard to "liberate" that tension. Certain yoga poses alleviate it, but I struggle to achieve a lasting effect. So, I believe the "transcendent" orgasm can only be achieved once that "kundalini" potential is unlocked for a sustainable period of time.

Thanks for your comments!

I never claimed to be enlightened. One who needs to obviously isn't. Neither have I stated that my experience had enlightened me.

I don't know who said this, but "Before enlightenment, I chopped wood and carried water. After enlightenment, I chopped wood and carried water."

Yes, a lizard is more religious than I am. Which is why I distrust words. Words cannot take you to the core of reality. That was there before verbal communication, and will be there when all life ceases.

Nor have I claimed to be religious.

I take nothing for granted and hold fast to no absolute truths. I make my way. That is all. "What has to arise - will..."

I think we're talking and walking past each other a bit...

Which is not strange given the topic. Spirituality, enlightenment, religion, inner pace - its all very personal experiences difficult to express in words. And one might not even have the vocabulary to express those kind of emotions, it might be beyond our daily speech or we might give those experiences words that can seem absurd to others but make sense to oneself.... If said I had an spiritual experience or some kind of enlightenment and it was like eating tomatoes in the rain, it would be absurd for others but might be exactly how I felt it. Who's to say what's right or wrong?

What those words mean for me - spirituality, or religion, or meditation, or ecstasy - might not be the same for the next person. But as I can only refer to my own experiences, it is for me very hard to see how one can put one type of experience over another... I don't think one can.

Walking on a mountain, enlightenment, an orgasm... Well, of course those are not the same but they might fulfil different but related needs in humans. Even if I got bored trying to meditate I don't think that makes me less spiritual or something... What's right for me might be wrong for someone else, and vice versa. There are no absolutes in my opinion.

I hope I make sense... I guess what I'm trying to say is given the top ten feelings I have had on this topic, its impossible for me to agree that I have missed something. How could I say that I have missed out something I don't know?

Well, the words won't be on my side today... I'll give it some more thought.

First of all, thanks so much everyone for indulging this topic! I’ve wanted to have a chat like this for awhile now, and I find all of your contributions fascinating.

And so… my two cents, for what they’re worth…

There are a lot of ways to approach this type of conversation. The facets of this discussion are endless, which can cause them to become interminable and disorganized. And this makes sense. Ultimately, at this stage of human evolution, there is no way to uncover any hard, empirical facts.

So, for me, it all boils down to this: What type of experience are you, as an individual, looking for?

Many people are content never pursuing a spiritual discipline. Most people are content to look for connectedness in simpler ways, like on top of mountain or alongside a lake or in a gentle breeze. And without a doubt, a person can cultivate their spirituality in a setting like that. However, I hesitate to claim this sort of activity is somehow a “lower” form of spirituality. Rather, I believe it falls somewhere along the full spectrum of spiritual experience – specifically along the peace, harmony, and relaxation portion of the spectrum.

And for many people, depending on their backgrounds, on what interests them, on what excites them, this type of spiritual experience is enough for them. For many, a full examination of that spectrum is not necessary.

I think what Annjin said here is relevant:

“I have habit of getting things over and done with quickly, and I prefer not use too much time on what has been.”

It’s my guess – and I could be wrong – that people who seek a more comprehensive approach to spirituality might not make a habit of getting things over and done with quickly. I speak mostly from personal experience. I am the kind of person who analyzes everything to death, and even if I’ve come to a few conclusions, I still go back and mull things over endlessly. This has been both a trap and a blessing.

This mentality also applies to my inner experiences. If I feel a tug, or a calling; if I have a “vision” or feel a “presence”; if I have a fear (or any emotion) whose origin is not apparent, I become very unsettled (or at least curious). I cannot leave a stone unturned. I am not satisfied until I have a complete lay of the land.

And so, this curiosity and interest has led me to a more active approach toward spirituality. At this juncture, that approach includes daily meditation and yoga, and research into eastern philosophy, in particular, the cultivation of “chakra” awareness.

As a result of that, I see potentials and possibilities within myself that were previously obscured.

Could I have uncovered this potential “on my own” without the assistance of a discipline? Possibly.

Or, can a person reach the same level of potential as I can without a specific discipline? Possibly.

I do know this, though – through pursuing this discipline, I am experiencing things that are markedly DIFFERENT than anything I’ve experienced before. I am experiencing levels of bliss that transcend orgasm, drug use, or anything else. I am experiencing a deep awareness of my body and mind processes. I am experiencing strange, hallucinatory or trance-like phenomena, much like what M-Evolve described.

I am also experiencing spontaneous positive changes in my outlook and behavior, where previously, I would have had to think long and hard before taking action (see above).

For me, this is very exciting. Mostly because I’ve always been a thrill-seeker, or an experience-seeker, which I believe is another personality trait of the spiritual-seeker.

Plus, it fosters a confidence I haven’t had since I was a child. It’s nice feeling like I am the master of my mind and body, which is how I felt when I was very young. It also gives me a deep sense of peace and acceptance of who I’ve become, and it makes me excited to discover who I’m becoming.

My final point is this: Who knows if everyone can benefit from such a discipline? I’m under the belief that they can, but if they don’t believe that’s true, if they don’t believe spirituality can improve their lives, AND if they are perfectly happy and healthy in their own lives, then it is pointless to try (and probably alienating [if you try]) to convince them otherwise.

'without words, without saying, tell the truth' :))

Thank you kagogo for your well-thought reply.

Personally, I don’t think the disciplines of meditation, as you guys describe it, is the only way to find tranquillity and inner peace. If one where to insist that so were the case, for me that is enforcing ones own ideas on others and being disrespectful over others mindset and view of life.

Does spirituality only go hand in hand with the discipline of meditation? Does spirituality equals experiencing some enlightenment, hallucinations?

I do believe that humans themselves have resources and different levels of consciousness. We are seldom in touch with all these aspects of our being, but as I see it we have different ways of achieving access to it. Be it meditation, orgasm, looking at the sea for hours… With all due respect for you and m-evolve’s experience, for me, an “experience”, in lack of a better word, must not be so expressive in order to be valid as a feeling of being conscious of these other aspects of ourselves. In my humble opinion, a quiet walk, in all senses of the word, can do the same.

It’s the paths we take that are different.

I apologize for not being able to explain better what I mean. It’s difficult to express ones view on this, both because of the medium, topic and language…

Hey, I think you're expressing yourself just fine... but you're right, it is hard to explain, and I probably haven't adequately explained my position, either.

But yes, I agree with you. There are many ways to find tranquility and inner peace. There are different paths to having a spiritual experience, and they are not contained only within the practice of meditation, yoga, trance, dance, or anything else considered esoteric.

At this point, the only distinction I'm making is that very INTENSE feelings and experiences are more likely to result from the "disciplines" than from solitary moments in nature, or anything else, precisely because of the discipline aspect of it -- the fact that one practices a certain method every day.

But of course, what one person perceives as highly intense could be greater or lesser than what another perceives as highly intense, and there is no way of measuring that difference. If you tell me that you experience intensity when staring at the ocean, how can I argue that you do not?

Also, even if there is a difference, does it even matter?

Which relates to what you said here:

"With all due respect for you and m-evolve’s experience, for me, an “experience”, in lack of a better word, must not be so expressive in order to be valid as a feeling of being conscious of these other aspects of ourselves."

I agree... and I think an example rather than an explanation is worth giving here:

You and I see a movie. It has an uplifting ending. One of us cries, the other feels exuberant. We had a different response, but didn't we respond to the same exact thing (the ending)?

(At this point, I don't have much left to say... :-) ... )

Thanks for being persistent. :-)

:)

being members of a photos/video/music site, we should try to show it in pictures or music, maybe

What a novel idea! ;-p

Maybe ... :)

maybe we should not. maybe we should keep silent about experiences like that. brain research has shown, that all these spiritual experiences can be traced to a rather very small and primitive aerea of our brain (some people possess it in more accentuated form - the mystics, religious fanatics, artists, etc. - others almost nothing of it - atheists, agnostics, reasonable average john does...
what you describe as a spiritual experience and enlightning revelation of god and all heavens is maybe nothing than a brain defect, like legastheny.

I've read this, too. And all along, it's always what I believed. I believe the experiences are contained within ourselves, I seriously doubt our brains can "reach out" into other "spaces"... all I know is that it *feels* like God.

But I would prefer not to think of it as a defect! :-)

I don't believe its a defect at all.... I just think that what one experience - in all its different forms - is a connection with ourselves that we normally don't, for all kind of reasons. If it *feels* like God or a hallucination or ecstasy or silence, it's just words for the same thing, expressed in different words and, yes, rooted in different experiences.

The interesting part is, in my opinion, that one can feel a connection or experience something that is not in ones immediately reach, or in daily life if one prefer. How ones reaches it and how this experience materialize is secondary, I think. My main point is that it is nothing *outside* us, like higher powers, but more humans abilities and complexity that one can get a more profound understanding of..

I agree with what you said about the interesting part, how we have the ability to tap into parts of our brains that aren't immediately in reach. I think it's hugely demonstrative of the power of the human mind.

And though I do believe (and know it's probable) that these experiences are contained within the individual's mind, and that they are by-products of the machinery of a complex organism, it is exciting to imagine that somehow, an individual's consciousness can somehow puncture the fabric of reality.

That's probably what it all comes down to: Most people really, really hope there is something beyond all of this; a place to go when our bodies die.

I am at peace with the finality of death, but I maintain hope for eternity. I figure, why not keep hoping? Does it hurt anything?

No ... I don't think it hurts anything or anybody believing there's some eternity. Actually I might be wrong believing there's no such thing.... Well, time will tell, wont it ;)

Belief is in my opinion a good thing in one way, because it meet some need in humans and perhaps also something that is true. It gives people meaning and makes them feel connected to other things then themselves. Which can't be bad.

The danger comes when people are trying to persuade others that theirs are the path .... religion has much good things going for it I think but it also have a bad reputation. Which makes some people, like me, back of even with the word of "higher powers" because its very often (for me at least) connected to forcing people to believe in something.

But as go for Eternity ... I don't think it hurt keep hoping for it, not at all. Its just the path we chooses, and as long as it's a personal choice, why not?

Well, gotta get back here and read everything, but basically...

What you are doing by meditating is exploring your true nature and reaching corners forgotten by the way we live nowadays.

It may be called divine because it has an enormous potential, but... God? God in the Judeo-Cristian way? No.

You are just experimenting reality!

There's a word that comes together with religion, from the very beginning of humanity: violence. By all means. To the name of an All -Devouring- God or Father or whatever.

It's a god that tries to make us feel guilty because ...we are alive.

Humankind has suffered immensely from the organized lies about a fake love and justice - for centuries. Now, today, we can finally choose what to believe or not.
We can think an feel the inner meaning of some words, fears and needs.
I feel lucky to live today, to read freely your thoughts Karin, to deny or to accept them, to explore the unnoticed yet existing beauty of chaos...