Thinking about it…

June 20, 2007 - 14 comments

It seems like a community is breaking up – for me this is more of an issue than the censorship that caused it.

Some of my friends have moved here, some may be just dipping a toe, others look to have moved permanently. It seems too soon, flickr have still to reveal the outcome of their behind-the-scenes negotiations.

Clearly whatever action flickr takes will be motivated by commercial sense rather than principle, that should always have been clear. However trendy and street-styled the flickr interface there has always been big business behind the 'Whoa' messages, so a lack of genuine principle in no way leaves me disillusioned – rather I'm just surprised at such a slick operation making this blunder in an age where companies prosper by trumpeting social responsibility and all sorts of non-profit-generating-multicultural greenness.

The US has an appalling image of false morality and deplorable disregard for other cultures – but this is not news. flickr's lack of principle seems the norm for American big business. This episode reveals for everyone flickr as an ugly commercial organisation rather than the community image it sought to portray – but for me this has not been a revelation, I always separated the community feeling I shared with my contacts and the community-styled presentation of the website. And I've always been taken aback by 'I love flickr' style images (and I have to say even more so by the fanaticism found on Vimeo).

The record of American business didn't dissuade me from subscribing to flickr so this latest lack of principle may not be the reason for leaving – I am assuming the behind-the-scenes negotiations will produce an outcome that means no censorship in real terms so that the only permanent casualty is the ‘cool’ image marketed by flickr.

I'm cynical enough to question if there is any site which could be considered ethical. I don't know, maybe the most that we can expect is to have a genuine community on a site that only pretends to care?

For me personally there is an aspect to this which is almost surreal. My German friend Senta and I have always joked and despaired at the British repressed and puerile attitude to sex compared to Germany and the rest of western Europe, and now of all places it is Germany where adult content is being censored.

This whole thing is so fast-paced and disorienting I don’t know what to think, but I’m thinking about it…

roamin, withdiamonds, artelisa, ortrun have particularly liked this article

14 comments - The last ones

striatic

this reminds me of people leaving fotolog and going to flickr, back when fotolog was having a lot of technical issues and a lack of communication.

but i don't think moving to this site will break up your community. just like it didn't break up the fotologgers who moved to flickr.

5 years ago.

Baywhale has replied to striatic

Unfortunately it can only break up the community… friends are moving to different sites.

5 years ago.

atomicity

bay, you've said it so well. i also feel glum about this whole thing. it's not because of the underlying legal situation (i'll trust them that the german law is sufficiently vague or restrictive that it wasn't wise to jump without precautions, and I know that they didn't just dream up unequal treatment to be discriminatory). it's just because of the fact that it seems to have siphoned off so much energy and so many good friends, and secondarily also because the official behavior through the whole episode has had a glib/imperious tone that (one hopes) is imposed on them by the Y! overlords.

so far i hate the ipernity interface, it's not slick and streamlined in a way that lets me do what i want to do quickly during 30 second breaks from work-- so i really do hope things settle out in a way that's acceptable to everybody and i can stay there without losing track of friends... but for now, it's nice to see so many people here getting their toes wet--it's a reassuring sight, even if I'm not ready to to settle in just yet.

5 years ago.

Baywhale has replied to atomicity

Until the last twenty four hours I was able to give flickr the benefit of the doubt, though at a stretch. But their disregard for people who were waiting for a promised response at flickr's appointed hour is beyond belief.

I must say I agree about the ipernity interface. It is only a 'beta' but it's got a long way to go. On the bright side if anything leaves you perplexed all you have to do is click on the help file and all your questions are replaced with a smile… I guarantee it…

5 years ago.

withdiamonds has replied to atomicity

I can relate to everything you say, atomicity!

5 years ago.

striatic

i just wish there was a way to upload to multiple services at the same time.

5 years ago.

kyuboem

Hi Bay,

I've been keeping an eye on the situation at Flickr from a distance (don't have the time to get too involved these days) and been surprised and saddened, like you, of what seems to be the breakup of a community.

Maybe the biggest mistake that the Flickr team made was the strange and disturbing lack of communication, and, as you point out, missing the deadline they had set for themselves and then not answering the questions that members were dying for answers to. But, call me naïve, I would like to think these guys found themselves in over their heads. They're just photo / computer geeks who could make technological advances and made some cool, fun things possible, but they aren't social visionary leaders, and under pressure from legal counsel and the Y! higher-ups, got scared of saying anything that may or may not be used against them (in the court of law). They're like a lot of common folks, in other words. They have admitted to screwing up, though probably not to the satisfaction of many people, and too late.

So I don't see myself migrating anywhere. Too much hassle. But if a big chunk of the people I've come to know and appreciate at Flickr (like you) aren't there, it just won't be that fun anymore. It'd be rather sad. That's why I signed up on ipernity, just to keep in touch with ex-Flickr contacts and comment, and check out what it's like, not necessarily to use regularly (for now). I'm hoping not too many will leave; it will be harder for me to skip back and forth between two sites to keep tabs on all the people and all of their works. (It's hard enough on one site for me.)

Best,
Kyuboem

5 years ago.

Baywhale has replied to kyuboem

Fear not, I'm staying at flickr, just taking a break with people who've decided to move on.

You show incredible feeling for the people responsible at flickr. Anyone reading this would think you must be a carer by vocation rather than the criminal extortionist and torturer that I know you to be…

Bay

5 years ago.

kyuboem

(Glad that I'll continue to be seeing you around flickr...)

Let's just say I know something of the challenges involved in keeping a community together, a band of no-good criminals though that community might be...

5 years ago.

kyuboem

...OK, I know I'm late getting caught up. I got a chance to read up on the staff reactions, your open letter, atomicity's, artelisa's, and others'. Whew! The staff's muteness was (and is) bad business practice, not to mention ethically irresponsible. They should have come out and interacted with the users openly and quickly--transparency is a virtue. Instead, they hid. I don't think you are being too cynical when you say these sites only pretend to care; I'd say that's probably all too real... but flickr isn't my salvation. So I agree; this whole affair was bad business.

I guess I was just trying to imagine what kinds of pressures and temptations would be on me if I were in flickr team's position (what you meant by "you show incredible feeling"). I'm not unfamiliar with those pressures; as well, I'm all too aware of my own fallibility, even the capacity to pretend to care. It's the "Take the log out of your own eye first" principle. So I'm not condoning flickr team's actions; I'm trying to imagine them as human beings. It would seem to me that otherwise, every interaction and every relationship will be burdened down by cynicism and won't be able to bear the weight of "I knew that he/she/they were no good..." (because we all fail at one point or another).

There is a heaviness over the whole flickr experience right now, it seems. I'm feeling a little sapped of energy myself. Hopefully there can be a renewed, albeit more realistic, resurgence of creativity and interaction (I loathe to say the word "community" now) in the near future...

(Saying too much here on your post... gonna shut up now...)

5 years ago.

Baywhale has replied to kyuboem

You talk a lot of sense, Q. Many people are disillusioned with flickr-the-company's lack of ethics but it's true that the people delivering the policy are human beings. I have to say my own view here is that what responses and apologies that we've seen have been directed by the company – I would even say the staff user icons are no longer just real people but a means of delivering flickr PR, probably with a lawyer sitting alongside redrafting every line. I'm perhaps overly suspicious in noticing that the icon for one cool young dude has been replaced with a respectable young man in a collar and tie…

Of course in real life I would be understanding of the pressure on the individuals (especially if someone admits to doing something wrong) but we're not going to see real life on flickr, what we see is a business machine.

I don't feel good about sounding so cynical speaking to someone with an expert understanding of caring – really I know that there is a lot of good in the world!

I'm looking forward to a 'more realistic resurgence of creativity'. Many people will have lost the illusion of flickr-the-company genuinely caring, and at the moment this is all so new that there is 'heaviness' and feelings of disillusionment, but I hope it's only a matter of time before people see this big business aspect as a matter of fact thing and it won't get in the way of using the website as a great means of getting together.

5 years ago.

Catherine...

it is not cynicism to see things as they are rather lucidity

5 years ago.

Baywhale has replied to Catherine...

Yes, Catherine, from now on I'm a realist, I'll leave it to the non-realists to think of me as a cynic

5 years ago.

withdiamonds

Just came across your entry, Bay, and I agree with it all--I share the feeling of sadness at the synergy there being upset, and the realism towards flickr--and I have been adopting the same attitude as you, ie staying there.

5 years ago.

Sign-in to post a comment.

Authorizations, license

Thinking about it…