next setback for us germans? google this time

manueller Trackback:
www.ipernity.com/blog/drysachs/13004

Irgendwann geben wir wieder Rauchzeichen, jede Wette.

WTF is going on??? So it IS the German government that is doing all of this shit. I think instead of protesting flickr/yahoo/gmail....who the fuck ever...you guys need to do something about the government. Just my opinion of course.

EXACTLY Sara WTF is happening???...if it IS the government doing this...NOTICE TO ALL MY GERMAN FRIENDS pack up all your shit and get over here NOW and live with me...we'll work it out somehow.

Can I live with you? I don't live in Germany!

You're right, Queen, it is our fucking gov. I'd said that in serveral threads at flickr, but no one could believe it. We've got the choice between censorship and surveillance.

Sherry: many of us are really thinking about leaving germany. And be sure, not only because that flickr shit.

Thank you for agreeing drysachs. I don't know the details because I don't live there and don't know what it is like. I am sure people will have different perspectives as they do with everything. I would have to do some major research, but it would be of no help unless someone used the information to better Germany for the sake of the people. I don't even know what type of government you all have but it sounds like communism to me. Again...my opinion only. I just hate the shit for all of you. Every single fuckin' one of you. I am sorry.

But let's be reasonable about it, drysachs: Leaving for the States would be like hopping out of the frying pan into the fire in terms of surveillance...
And - even IF it can all be pinned to the overly strict German laws, I still maintain that Yahoo's as well as apparently Google's lawyers are doing lousy jobs in not better researching the implications and solutions to the situation at hand. The measures they take - like flickr's filtering systems and Google's pondering over closing German GMail accounts - is plain paranoia. It's like never leaving your house again, because you could get hit by a car or get into a hailstorm or something. This is just a lame attempt of making excuses and doesn't go down well with me.
However - it shows me what the large corporations are made of. And I'm seriously beginning to wonder, whether we have to wave bye-bye to the social web, for we are all voluntarily disclosing A LOT of information about ourselves, aren't we?

Maybe Googles decision is only PR but even when: it helps to make a very huge problem public. That's why I'm saying "Thank you, Google!"
If they'll really close GMail for germany, I guess the other services were we need a GMail-account for are also closed then. Blogspot as an example. Maybe picasa and google video.
Youtube has cancled their german version just in this week the protest at flickr came over. A coincidence? Or really a problem with our GEMA?

(GEMA is comparable to ASCAP in the US)

Renovatio06...I have plenty of freedom in the states...no surveillance for me here?!!?!?
Okay, so you may have a different perspective, but what would be behind flickr/yahoo/google's reasoning to just shut Germany out?? Ohhh, let's pick on Germany today?? I don't think so, I believe it is much more than just lawyers doing a lousy job. I think they have plenty to do than just pick on Germany, don't you?

Werner although I disagree with your "hopping out of the frying pan into the fire"
in terms of surveillance...( don't you think your view *may* be colored
by your personal dislike of the US? ;-) with a few wonderful exceptions)
I DO agree about the corporations and their lawyers doing a piss
poor job of things.
Sara it's not that they are picking on
Germany...it's just that they are... to put it in my street lingo: lazy whores

It would take WAY too much effort and research (in THEIR opinion NOT
mine) to find a different/reasonable answer to the flickr/now perhaps
google problem. The don't care what flickr is and what it means to
people...the dollar is their bottom line...so if they can throw a
little money around to people who MIGHT care...to appease them...then
the simple cut to the chase answer...Germany(or whatever country in
question) is a problem...delete them. Cut throat and heartless but that
is the way monster corporations/and their attorney minions behave.
That's why flickr members felt SO betrayed because they were under the
impression they were in good caring hands...never to be sold out...they
unfortunately for them/us they/we were wrong.

And Werner...I will relent * a little* that since 9/11 and the advent
of homeland security...technically yes there is more surveillance...and
well technically there has always been a super EASY way to track us...
with our SS numbers...and what I post on the web I don't mind ANYone seeing it reading it...or I wouldn't post it here now would I? ;-)

And Drysachs...ROCK ON! Exactly if it WAS only a PR thing for
Google...and it brought a much larger problem than just censorship...
ie German laws starting to careen toward the EXTREME right...if it
brought a spot light on this...then I too
say "Thank You Google"!!!!

I am still not getting/understanding this??!?!?! What IS the problem we are speaking of??

drysachs says this: it helps to make a very huge problem public
Sherry says this: and it brought a much larger problem than just censorship

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??

Tell me if I am understanding this:
Germany changed the laws.
FLickr/yahoo said Fuck 'em, too much trouble.
Germans are pissed???

Is this the just of it??

One word: surveillance
surveillance in addition with censorship and the less of privacy.
Did you know that we've lost the bank secrecy in germany in 2005?

No, I did not know that. All I know is, you guys must do something. You cannot let this happen now, because it will only get worse. I am hoping for the best for you guys and I think most of us, even if we don't live there, will go right along with you all.

Well, maybe I am stupid, but censorship cannot exist without surveiling someone...you got to watch them to censor them...don't you. And if you think you are not under the magnifying glass in the US of A you are well lets say, polyanna...just my opinion

Well Sara I'm not German but just as an outsider looking in, and from what info
Sascha, Werner and now Drysachs are giving..
Flickr/Yahoo...don't want to deal with the poliitcs of countries and
their laws...too time consuming...complicated...so just drop them if
they are some kind of problem...and apparently German laws ARE changing
and in a direction that is not very positive for their people...more
restrictive, intrusive, controlling...
that is MY take on it anyway...Kees, Werner, Sascha, Drysachs...please


be more specific than this dumb American ( ME :-D) in trying to shed a


little light..
Sherry Sherrard-Jackson says: in reply to your added comment Sara
yes Sara I think basically this is it...because flickr BEFORE yahoo
bought it out...was all about community...and well...as you can see
what they chose to do...was in their German based customers (and 3
other countries as well with of course MUCH stricker laws) a kind of
betrayal to the idea of world wide community...in my street words again
the flickr founders caved and became...just like the corporate
suits...whores

Thats all fine Snickers, but laws are laws, and if the perception that a company is being uncooperative with the law can cost them a lot more. I am not defending Flickr or anyone else as I am pretty much ignorant on this issue. Business people look at the bottom line of the P&L statement, I doubt very much if they care about anyone other than how it effect their pecuinary interests...maybe?

Well if this is the case...I still take my same stance I took at the beginning of this whole conversation. Germany's people can be mad at flickr/yahoo/google all day long, but they are just not going to go along with Germany's laws. Period. I think the anger is misguided here. We have to look at who is RESPONSIBLE here? Yes it seems that these companies fucked you all over but if they are choosing to not participate in these controlling and restrictive laws then it is by good reason that these companies took this stance.
Does Germany citizens vote on who is elected to the government??
Do the German people have a say so in their own rights?
I think you must look at how Germany's government was formed. If it is by the people of Germany then the responsibility lies in your own hands, not only the hands of the government.

I believe the whole world is so big on placing blame elsewhere than admiting that they themselves had something to do with it. America, I must say is the worst at this. They blame the government for not "raising" the kids correctly or not protecting so-n-so's rights while he was in prison..but in fact, it is the parents fault or your own fault for being in jail in the first place. Don't get your ass in jail and guess what...this shit wouldn't have happened.Don't blame the government for having sucky prisons, if you would've been doing what you were supposed to, guess what...Your ass wouldn't be there!! Losing track here...

If the German citizen's had a hand in putting these people in office then you must lay the blame where the blame belongs. If you are allowed to vote (however you get them in office) and you didn't do it at all, it's still your fault. You can do nothing and still make the wrong decision. This is YOUR country, take a hold of it. Do what needs to be done for the sake of Germany...not the country but the people. I'm done here...and Sherry...I think Sascha is gonna kill us, when he sees it is us again who it filling up his blog! ;)

Well, that all sounds good but you are bucking hundreds of years of precidence and complaceancy,,,sorry about the spelling, We in the United States are waking up to the big surprise that we want our government to do more and more for us and with entitlements come control...plain and simple.

Sherry just read your post you put back on there?? But can we blame yahoo/flickr...at all??? They are assholes, they're not my fuckin' friends...I don't give a damn about them, I use their sites for my own needs. I use them for my pics, as they use my money. It's a two way street. Again..it would be the government...I would be after.

Okay... what the hell is going on? Thank you Sherry and Sara, Werner (good to see you here!!) and drysachs for some of your enlightening comments, but I'm still confused as to the full situation. I am not familiar with the state of affairs in Germany, so I can't really see where this is all coming from or who may be at fault.

I often think I am lucky in that I live in Canada, but we here, on a daily basis it seems, see our governments, that we elected, doing things that the majority of Canadians disagree with! If the rest of the politicians in the world are anything like Canadian politicians we elect them to do one thing and they do another! Once they are in the corruption usually begins , you know the saying - power corrupts!

I will keep my eyes open to this matter, I hope it is resolved, and in a just and fair way!

Now quick...clean up this mess and turn out the lights I hear Sascha coming! LOL!!

Julian!! LMAO!!! Very funny...yes, we do need to clean this up. But I agree with you also, politics is VERY messy and dishonest and I think fucks(excuse my language) us over more than any one person could! I am confused and am keeping my mouth shut until further notice!! =)

LMAO SARA!!! JULIAN!!! You're right Sascha IS gonna kill us.
but again Sara... just my opinion here yes...I do blame them...(flickr/yahoo)


but sure the German government seems to be going in a very decidedly
stringent direction with their laws...

but again this is my view looking from the outside in...BY NO MEANS totally informed or an expert on this issue...just my gut reactions.

Has anyone read German history...? Not to be derogatory, just asking.

Well, I do know this... poor Sascha is probably fast fast asleep dreaming about what a wonderful place Ipernity is and now tomorrow morning he's going to have a shock when he logs on! LOL!

Hi Sascha! Ummm... I just got here a little while ago... ummm... it wasn't me! It was them! ;-)

okay... seriously, I'd like to hear from Sascha, and Germans in general, but also other companies that surely have to deal with the same issues Flickr and Google have to deal with. The fact that Google is now having problems, to me, does shine a bit of a light on the government! I'd also like to know more about the issue with YouTube. And what about Ipernity, they are right here... taking in, Lord knows how many German refugees. How are they dealing with it all? How will it be different for Ipernity then it was for Flickr? Are we talking about a company with a braver backbone... solidarity... the fact that Ipernity isn't actually in Germany or what? I find it way too confusing... I need to go rest my poor little head!

And again, sorry Sascha... but really... they started it! :-)

Good night all!

Okay...I can't shut up now. I need more information!! Julian you have very good points here, how is Ipernity going to handle it, if in fact the German laws are doing this??

Sherry...sure I blame Yahoo/flickr for being dickheads and punks, puds, no backbone effers. I don't disagree with that. We see money is more important than people to them. One of the things i hate the most, but looking at the big picture, if you want something to change, you cannot put your faith in corporations, they ARE in it for the money. You HAVE to change the laws/government. That is the big picture. Because not only will it be yahoo/flickr...then it will move on to something else...other than internet shit, something more personal. To get things to change they cannot just look the fore front but the bigger picture. Sherry...we can agree to disagree.. =)Promise...shutting up now. Yes, Sorry Sascha for all of this.

That is exactly right, Corporations and not the keeper of the keys when it comes to laws, they are just required to comply with them. I hate big business, but...where would we be if they all vanished. They have bottom lines, and as an example here in the homebuilding markets the big business have screwed up good, flooding the market with homes, now dumping homes at below appraised value leaving the poor people needing to sell their resale homes screwed. You can buy a brand new house for less than a 15 year old house. You think big business cares about that homeowner..No frickin' way, all they care about is Wall Street and their bottom line...You think Flickr or Google, who in my mind is someone to worry about from the surviellande standpoint, care about any of you, no freakin' way, it's your pocketbook they love, not you...cold, but truth. Google is scary, they are taking over our lives, and now they are bidding on huge wireless networks...they can tell you what kind of panties, if any, you are wearing today...

LOL well I don't DISagree with anything you just said in your comment
above...so I guess we can agree to agree on that one ;-)))))

Werner...I hope you don't mind a kinda quote here...but YOU expound on it okay...
the German law(s) they are reacting/or over reacting to( however you may view it )
is a law for the protection of minors...in fear of the possibility of future lawsuits .

Ok, I have to clear at least one thing. You guys do not really think that we (the people in germany) do not have the right to vote (our government), do you?!?!

Gawd...my ignorance is coming out. I was actually trying to make a point. I must say, I do not know that much about other countries and their governments. Sorry!?! :( But I would like you to tell us your opinion on this matter, since you do live in Germany! :)))

Yeah, I do live in Germany. And I don't feel like being watched by Big Brother at all. Although the internet is part of my everyday life, I don't feel that offended. It was (and still is in some parts) kind of a lawless(?) place, but as it gets bigger every second, the rules/laws have to be updated/adapted. I, for myself, see a big difference in online and offline life/activities. And I still prefer the offline one. And for this one, I think Germany is one of the best and most free countries you can live in.

You see, there are many places in the world that are much more beautiful (landscape-wise) than Germany. But I love to live here and I love my country. And I am so happy, that we (the "young" Germans) can say so without thinking about the foul taste of our country's past. But that's another story... :)

I am only trying to figure this whole yahoo/flickr thing out. I am/was not putting Germany down at all, and if it seems that way I truly apologize. I am very glad you love your country and you are so proud to stand up and say that. That shows me what kind of person you are. :) Thank you for enlightening us and I hope you got my email I just sent. Next time, I will just keep my BIG mouth shut.

As said, I did not get your comment wrong.

And don't you keep your mouth shut! That would be like censorship! ;)

Good point(s), el tiburon. I don't feel all that monitored, either, for the time being. All of this might change to quite some extent, as soon as the announced personal ID will be in effect (coming this July, so it's a matter of days). @Sara, Sherry/US citizens: It can be compared to your social security ID in that it homogenizes formerly decentralized tax data on people into one source of information (used to be 5300 regional and local so-called "Meldestellen", which had tax information on citizens).
On that note: Sara, that's what I alluded to with my "Big Brother" comment: If your government need information on you, they can track any transaction based on either credit card or social security number. And if you own and use a cell phone, your signal can be tracked, so they know your whereabouts. Of course, all of this might not be enforced on a general basis and there will always be people saying "I don't have anything to hide, so I don't mind". But remember the McCarthy era? From one day to another, it might not be you any more defining whether or not anything you do is subject to prosecution or not.
Yes, Sherry, I admit it - I'm beginning to sound a little paranoid myself...
However: My fear is that the "free days" of the Internet are coming to a rapid end with events of the caliber of flickr/Yahoo and Google...

Hier noch ein deutscher Artikel von Gernot zu den aktuellen Ereignissen.

:) well Werner that *paranoid comment* was a humorous reply to you...made elsewhere...but your point is WELL taken here...reading all of the comments made above...just who is sounding paranoid and who isn't ? As you pointed out I CERTAINLY do in my first comment about everyone packing up and getting out...I not only sound paranoid...but to el tiburon...I'm sure I sound extremely presumptuous...My apologies to you on that el tiburon...it was just a highly emotional response to this original post...you see your beloved country has several residents that I care deeply for...so the comment was made from a place of concern okay...it's refreshing to hear your love and dedication to your country...and from what I can see (from my friends pics) you certainly have gorgeous landscapes there as well...some I hope to actually see for myself next summer :)
and again Werner I'll cop to sounding too naive about caring what I say and do on the internet...your right at least at this point my thought IS I have nothing to hide...but again you are making excellent points to challenge my naivete...

to try and at least sum up MY personal feelings is...the problem I had and STILL have with flickr/yahoo...is that THEY imposed the censorship...as a piss poor, ill thought out response to the German law(s)...so yes I still put the blame on them...again for alot of what I've already posted here...that is just MY feelings on what happened and MY feelings towards flickr/yahoo.

I think I got your comment right the first time, but may not have replied as jokingly, for I deem the entire incident a rather serious one with consequences we and the corporations aren't seeing in full scope yet.
Feelingwise I was shocked first, pissed then, disappointed now. However, if we go beyond personal feelings and being affected, there certainly is a need to act now. But before I do - and that's just me - I want to make sure I do it in the most effective way.
And that's where my reluctance comes in: I just don't know, what the best approach is. And just delivering ANY actions as a response might not be to much avail for all of us.
Frankly, I don't even know, which institution I'd have to turn to, if I wanted to file an official complaint... Anyone, who can shed some light here? Cause I certainly don't mind writing something up to that end.

Again, I don't feel offended or anything by any of the above comments. And I don't feel any offense against my country by any of the above comments. My country is not the german government, but the place where I live. So we are good on this one.

Maybe I would have better kept my mouth shut, because I am not that much into this topic. Although I am one of the many persons who are affected by this, I don't recognize any restrictions in my usage of the mentioned sites. I do see the point that others feel different. But personally, I don't have the urgent feeling to act. Like renovatio06, I would not even know where to take my actions...



PS: Sherry, there may be some gorgeous landscapes over here. But since I have been in the Pacific Northwest on vacation, I don't even want to look out of my window here... ;)

Ohh take your own advice there el tiburon....

"And don't you keep your mouth shut! That would be like censorship! ;)"

Teeheeheeeee....Never keep your mouth shut!! You have good advice and have helped me look at things differently. So thanks!!

some news:
www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2007-06-23-google-washington-censorship_N.htm
www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/25/25566/1.html

Google "Sees censorship as an impediment to the flow of fair trade" What does that sound like, as I said before they are doing whatever they have to do to protect their ability to do business. They are also using the opportunity to drum up empathy from the public, maybe because they see what is happening with Flickr...Maybe.

Thanks, drysachs - interesting read. Seems the flickr issue has opened Pandora's box completely now, in terms of bad press, hasn't it? When I say "bad" press, I mean press clippings, of course, being counterproductive to the big corporations' sales numbers. I think, it was about time that the large players and the countries they're having business relations with stuck their heads together to take a good and long look at how local laws affects their businesses...
Wow - Web 2.0 has come of age and it seems a whole new ball game all of a sudden...
Oh, and el tiberon: I have been in Seattle and Vancouver only about two months ago and man, I will never forget some of the sights there... I still think, this entire Canada project is not completely called off, just indefinitely postponed... (for now ;-))

renovatio06, I remember you commenting about possibly moving to Canada. You are very right, you and el tiberon, there are sights on the Pacific coast one never forgets! I used to live in Vancouver, I grew up there for the most part, and I spent a year living in the Gulf Islands back in 2004, and I miss it a great deal! Your comments made me go over to F____r, tonight to bring one photo back over here... hope you like it!

Was mich zu der Frage fuehrt, fuer welches Land ich nun wieder meinen gmail account registriert habe, seufz.......mal gucken geh.......Danke fuer die Infos!

Wo zum Kuckuck finde ich denn, in welchem Land ich angemeldet bin??

hehe, sag ich nicht. :) ... in den settings würde ich mal vermuten. ich hab mir von den amis extra einen neue adresse anlegen lassen und meine sprache auf englisch gestellt. irgendwo gibt es aber auch "lokale" angaben.

Haette ich auch vermutet, in den settings finde ich allerdings nix. Sprache ist auf englisch, aber das heisst ja nix :S
Naja, frueher oder spaeter werde ich's wohl feststellen :(

schau mal hier:
www.google.com/accounts/EditUserInfo?hl=de
www.google.com/accounts/ManageAccount
hab ich über google video "mein konto" gefunden.

Danke!
Da ich ein .com Konto habe gehe ich mal davon aus, dass es eh nicht ueber D-Land ging.... Die Landesangaben sind glaube ich nur fuer die Uhrzeiten.

ALLE sind .com , in deutschland nur .googlemail.com weil es einen rechtsstreit mit gmail.de gab ( einer anderen firma )

uh :(

The heart of the matter (as I see it):
1) everybody, without exception, is open for investigation, regardless of suspicious facts (compare: for reasons of privacy, surveillance cameras on your own property are allowed as long as they don’t show public areas; surveillance cameras in public areas flout any privacy: everybody is held suspect);
2) investigation isn’t subject to external judiciary control (it isn’t ordered by a judge who assesses the reasons for invading someone’s privacy, but is randomly ceded to the executive power, the police);
3) preemptive strikes against crime (or any unlawful behavior) gain importance over prosecution after the act (though they have no place within a free society).
4) personal data of innocent people are collected from various sources, linked and saved for whatever future use.

Some of this is still under discussion: our minister of the interior clearly wants to go further than basic law permits. However, the war against terrorism and organized crime has set us on a track leading to these four destinations.
“I have nothing to hide” –that’s fine; I haven’t either. But meanwhile the governmental care for my safety frightens me more than the risks of being without it, and so does the readiness of our internet providers to comply with (future) regulations.

Indeed. And I have yet to see a politician held in custody without proof, because he's suspected to be a terrorist :(

yes exactly Kees thank you! You is SO smart :)
and thankyou for the newslink drysachs

Thanks for pointing me here Snickers, I had to put my two-cents in even though I am totally ignorant of the situation. HOWEVER, this situation can be overlayed on many other aspects of our society, and maybe future...xo

My question would be here...

Who is Techcrunch?? Who wrote this???

Who knows exactly about this laws??

anyone has an anwser coming from Europe, please??